Curse

InfernalSuffering · Sep 27, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Ok this is an idea I have had in the last couple days about a class that can quench the flood of warriors in both pvp and pve. Warriors can farm almost anything, survive, almost anything, and kill almost anything given the time. In fact, I have a warrior myself, who doesn’t? The way I figure it as of now this is how guild wars is set up. Would you take a dervish over a warrior? Would you take a paragon over a ranger? Would you take a ritualists over a monk? Besides special situations, no you wouldn’t.

Melee Warrior-single person dmg, Dervish-multiple person dmgg
Ranged Ranger-single person control Paragon-multiple person control
Healing Monk-great single person heal Ritualist-great multiple person heal
Mesmer would be too powerful w/ multiple person effects
Elementalist already has multiple person effects
Necromancer already has multiple person effects
But what about assassin?
Would it be too powerful damaging multiple opponents?
Can it be done?

Armor
This class I propose to you uses armor the same as ranger (70 AL) and armor that is very similar to rangers except there isn’t any armor on the upper arm (no significance) the is all tight like an assassins.

The Shuriken
This is not a conventional shuriken. It is attached to a chain about the same length as a warrior’s sword. It does considerably less damage then a sword however and attacks much faster at .75 attacks per second as opposed to a sword at 1.33. It also deals much less damage at 11-15 but deals damage much like a scythe to adjacent opponents.

Primary Attribute
Agility-For every level this is increased you can an additional 1% chance of swinging twice (up to 16% at lvl 16 attribute). This also affects skills that increase movement speed, attack speed, and evasiveness.

Secondary Attributes
Shuriken Mastery-This affects the damage dealt with the shuriken and the skills that help inflict damage with one.
Condition Control-this affects skills that deal with both healing and giving conditions.
Holy Control-This affects skills that heal for your evasiveness and attack speed.

Adrenaline
Attack skills are based on Adrenaline the same as warriors and paragons, but these skills also require combos like Assassins. These must go: Rise, Center, Finale for lack of better names.

Skills go Energy, Adrenaline, Cast time, Recharge

Agility Skills
Agile Assault {E} Stance 5 - - 30
for 20 secs you have +20% chance to evade an attacks, when you evade an attack this way you gain 1…3 momentum.

“To fight again” {E} Shout 5 - - 30
For 10 seconds, whenever you get hit by an attack your movement speed increases by 10%.

A Blaze of Blades{E} 5 - - 30
For 10 seconds, you attack 33% faster and cause burning for 1...4 seconds.

Holy Haste Stance 5 - - 20
For 10 seconds you attack 10-20% faster.

Accuracy Test 5 - ¼ 20
For 8 seconds the next time target foe misses w/ an attack they take 15-30 dmg.

God Speed Stance 5 - - 20
For 10 seconds you move 25% faster.

“Prepare for War” Shout 5 - - 10
The next stance you use lasts 33% longer.

Creating Time - 5 ¼ 20
Your next attack misses and then target foe’s next attack misses.

Useless Defense 5 - - 10
If next attack is blocked, target foe takes 20-30 dmg.

Not Quick Enough 5 - - 10
If next attack is evaded, target foe takes 20-30 dmg.

Get Back Up 5 - - 20
Get knocked down and gain 10 momentum.

Run to Your Death 10 - - 30
The next foe you strike in combat moves 25% faster for 5 seconds, but is knocked down and takes 25...50 damage if they have moved during that time period.

Leaf in the Wind 5 - - 30
You become Crippled. For 10 seconds you evade all attacks.

Shuriken Mastery
Whirlwind {E} – 7 – 15 Center
All adjacent foes are knocked down and you swing twice.

Focused Pain {E} – 10 – 30 Finale
Swing at target foe (only) 3-5 times and take 150-100 dmg.

Rising Storm {E} - 5 - 10 Rise
Your next Center and Finale skills used both have 100% armro penetration.

Opening Shot – 5 – 10 Rise
Your next attack does +1…10 dmg.

The Battle Begins – 5 – 10 Rise
No initial effect. The next closing attack does +10 dmg.

True Momentum – 7 – 20 Center
Gain +1…3 momentum if this attack hits.

Sharp Metal – 7 – 20 Center
Your next attack deals +10….20 dmg.

Desperate Flail – 10 – 30 Finale
Swing 3 times at all adjacent foes.

Final Challenge – 10 – 30 Finale
Your next attack deals +20…30 dmg.

Self Inflicted 5 - - 20
You attack 25% faster for the next 5 secs, if you miss you take 20….10 dmg

Savior 10 - - 20
Your next 10 attacks do 50% of the normal damage but steal health.

Condition Control
Eternal Suffering {E} 10 - - 10
For 10 secs your attacks deal bleeding and weakness.

Courage Fails {E} 5 - - 10 Shout
Opponent becomes crippled if not adjacent to you.

Strength Evaporates {E} 5 - - 10
Target foe suffers from Weakness for 10 seconds. This condition is reapplied whenever that foe hits in combat.

Bleeding Edge 5 - - 10
For 10 secs your attacks cause bleedingfor 3...10 seconds.

Poisonous Debt 10 - - 10
For 10 secs your next attacks cause poison for 1...7 seconds

Pure Power 10 - - 10
For the next 10 secs you can have no conditions inflicted on you.

Clear Your Soul 5 - - 5
Clear all of your conditions.

Spell Speed 10 - - -
If target foe is casting a spell, it is cast instantly then they are dazed for 5 secs.

Spread the Wealth 5 - - 10
Target foe is poisoned for 10...20 seconds and you bleed for 10 secs.

Deep Strike 10 - - 10
If target foe is below 80% health, they suffer from deep wound for 10 secs.

Sticks and Stones 10 - - 20
Your party can’t suffer bleeding for 10 secs.

Released from Within 10 - - 20
For 15 seconds fleshy creatures adjacent to target foe's area become Diseased for 1...10 seconds.

Holy Control
Holy Renewal {E} 10 - - 10
Whenever you miss with and attack for 10 secs, you gain 40 health.

Gods Prayers {E} 5 - - 20
Whenever you get hit in melee for 10 secs you gain 3 energy.

The Gods are Behind Me 5 - - 15
You gain 5 momentum.

This is definitely not finished but I wanted to get this out there an hear your opinions. Holy control was just a thought for the 4th attribute and is not complete or even well thought into. Notice that there is hardly even any casting times because of their remarkable agility. If this needs fixing please tell me.

actionjack · Sep 27, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Since you are relative new to the fourm.. I say

Good Job, lots detail, create on~

lightblade · Sep 27, 2006, 05:01 AM // 05:01

>.>
<.<
...
savior...
you're not saving anyone...

TheBaron82 · Sep 27, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

The Shuriken would be the best IW weapon in the game

I like the class.

InfernalSuffering · Sep 27, 2006, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Thanks....I had absolutely no idea for a name so I just put savior naming it after one of the skills. Any ideas suggesting names would be nice.

Kaida the Heartless · Sep 27, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

I see some imba skills that would just plain rock the current metagame. I also see some nice skills, which are nicely balanced, and have superb names. I love the creative names in people's suggestions. For example:

Sticks and Stones: Great name that matches the effect. Probably one of my favorite skills you created. Though, this seems a little strong. Possible 100% Immunity from bleeding indefinitaly. I could see this going on a OoB Necro for gvg. Pure Power seems the same way, this, combined with draw conditions could be devastating.

Prepare for War: Another great name to match it's effect. I think this skill would be pretty awesome.

Useless Defense: Seems a little underpowered. I say this because your next attack must be blocked, not the next attack that is blocked. See what I'm sayin?

Courage Fails: Give this badboy a recharge time. Good god, I can see the cripple flying through enemy ranks now! Sweet name though.

The gods are behind me: Pretty sweet name but overpowered. Five energy for constant free momentum? Eek!

Which reminds me, if the build uses Momentum to attack, but does attack chains, what happens if you run into a skill along the chain and don't have enough momentum?

Alltogether, it's a neat idea. Pretty balanced since many of the good attacks dont necessarily do alot of extra damage, but do "stuff" instead. Keep working on it!

Edit:
Here's an idea. Why not have the momentum you have built up, increase your damage by a percentage. This way, you could buff your attacks a little but, yet still release skill chains. The skills in the chains would drop your momentum, lowering damage but doing "stuff" at the same time. Think that would work?

lyra_song · Sep 27, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

It looks...interesting.

My problem lies in the fact that assassins do awesome damage already to single targets.

They spike then teleport out.

Setting up a profession that can multi-spike is asking for a imbalance.

I dont see the point of making another AOE character with a faster swing. Theres just no point....the mention of IW is already a good point.

Your momentum system really doesnt work for me. Its overpowered and underpowered at the same time.

Critical hits gains energy whenever it triggers....wheres your energy management?

I think its a good start but it can use a lot of improvement.

InfernalSuffering · Sep 28, 2006, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

It looks...interesting.

My problem lies in the fact that assassins do awesome damage already to single targets.
I know they do awesome damage to single targets. This is to provide a relatively similar class that attacks multiple foes.

They spike then teleport out.

Setting up a profession that can multi-spike is asking for a imbalance.
Multi-Spike? Can you say dervish?(not meant to be offensive)

I dont see the point of making another AOE character with a faster swing. Theres just no point....the mention of IW is already a good point.
I think it is kind of obvious that you are opposed to the dervish then. Another melee class, but does aoe. The mention of IW means nothing. Its strengths are also its weaknesses. SS and Empathy could take them down faster than you could deal damage in IW.

Your momentum system really doesnt work for me. Its overpowered and underpowered at the same time.Huh?

Critical hits gains energy whenever it triggers....wheres your energy management?Yes, I forgot to mention energy. It would have 25(similar to a warriors) and 2 energy regen. The main point is not to have constant stances and buffs on, but to mix these in combos w/ other attacks and buffs to create, not damage necessarily, but "stuff". Conditions etc.

I think its a good start but it can use a lot of improvement.

^^^All of my comments are in bold.

Kaida:
Bumped up recharge time for Sticks and Stones to 20 secs. This will still keep it usefull, but not overpowered.

Changed words in Pure Power to "inflicted" causing skills such as purge conditions and martyr to still cause conditions. "Inflicted" would be skills such as apply poison, sever artery etc.

I dont think changing the skills useless defense and not quick enough would be good. I would have to make the cost higher, recharge time higher, give it a casting time, or all of the above. I would use this skill once I knew that this person already had a skill doing either evade of blocking.

Created a recharge time on Courage Fails to 10 seconds. Not sure how to really fix this skill, but many using at the same time on different foes could still have a very devastating effect.

Wow, messed up big time on this one. Created a recharge time on the gods are behind me at 15 secs. Still pretty powerful and could change the tide in could be helpful closing quickly.

Your idea on momentum might work, however, I think it would add a lot more damage when, like you said, this class is more about doing "stuff" then pure damage which I would leave to the Dervish. You would gain momentum like you would adreneline. If you used your momentum for one skill, it would still be there for the rest, building up like real momentum would.

All comments appreciated.

actionjack · Sep 28, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Hey.. are you related to Kai Nui ?

lyra_song · Sep 28, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

I know they do awesome damage to single targets. This is to provide a relatively similar class that attacks multiple foes.

Hence, overpowered. The balance of the Assassin's incredible spike is this: Weak armor and ability to only hit 1 target.

Spiking is hitting 1 target hard and fast before he can be healed.

Theres zero classes that can spike more than 1 target at a time.

Aoe attacks in general are SLOW casting and slow effect, and if they are powerful, they require ADJACENT proximity with high energy costs.

Those are called checks and balances.

Quote:

Multi-Spike? Can you say dervish?(not meant to be offensive)

The dervish is pathetic in spiking. The dervish is built for PRESSURE not spiking. Constant AOE damage and removing enchants to do conditions and armor ignoring damage.

Quote:

I think it is kind of obvious that you are opposed to the dervish then. Another melee class, but does aoe. The mention of IW means nothing. Its strengths are also its weaknesses. SS and Empathy could take them down faster than you could deal damage in IW.

Oh no, I loved my Dervish during the PVP preview and she was fun in PvE preview (though much weaker). But the Dervish as a VERY slow attack speed.

Using IW would be a novelty at best since its soooo slow.

Your class has a .75 second attack speed. Thats RIDICULOUSLY powerful with IW.

Now cast IW, use Prepare for War, then Holy Haste Stance.

Ouch, ow, OW! x_X

Quote:

Huh?

Your primary is overpowered because it can do a double strike at 16 attribute the same as an Assasin. Except you can double at more than more target!
Its underpowered because you have no way of regaining energy.

Quote:

Yes, I forgot to mention energy. It would have 25(similar to a warriors) and 2 energy regen. The main point is not to have constant stances and buffs on, but to mix these in combos w/ other attacks and buffs to create, not damage necessarily, but "stuff". Conditions etc.

How would this class work without energy, you dont have enough momentum skills. Sure your skills are cheap at mostly 5 or 10 energy, but youll drain it very quickly with the regen. The energy based skills on a warrior are never as powerful as the adrenaline based skills. A warrior could live solely on adrenaline alone.

Lastly:
A Ranger with a Savior secondary would be BETTER than a Savior primary because your primary attribute is so terribly bad for the skills you have

I think the skill i really like is Spell Speed. Sounds perfect for a mesmer.

InfernalSuffering · Sep 28, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Hence, overpowered. The balance of the Assassin's incredible spike is this: Weak armor and ability to only hit 1 target.
The balance for this class is this: weak armor and ability to do little damage

Theres zero classes that can spike more than 1 target at a time.

Aoe attacks in general are SLOW casting and slow effect, and if they are powerful, they require ADJACENT proximity with high energy costs.
The differnece is that these ARENT powerful though they do require adjacent proximity. Though adjacent is technically aoe, the true glory of aoe is that it gets repeated, high damage on a target before they can move away or out of it. This has the repeated damage, but not the high damage.

Those are called checks and balances.The balance, as I've already said is that is strenght is also its weakness. If it attacks faster the more damage it takes from skills such as SS and empathy.

The dervish is pathetic in spiking. The dervish is built for PRESSURE not spiking. Constant AOE damage and removing enchants to do conditions and armor ignoring damage. I think your definition of PRESSURE is very similar if not the same as spiking. If done right, as shown in the pvp preview which I know has now been nerfed, the dervish can spike. Spiking is done to apply pressure and/or kill fast without having healing.

Your class has a .75 second attack speed. Thats RIDICULOUSLY powerful with IW. Though also ridiculously weak against attack such as SS and empathy.

Now cast IW, use Prepare for War, then Holy Haste Stance.

Ouch, ow, OW! x_XYes, and if you have SS and empathy this is for the player. Not to be repetitive.

Your primary is overpowered because it can do a double strike at 16 attribute the same as an Assasin. Except you can double at more than more target!
Its underpowered because you have no way of regaining energy.
I already said that its to combos not to just keep stanced up constantly. If I am wrong and that you can not almost always use a stance when most effective please let me know.

How would this class work without energy, you dont have enough momentum skills. Sure your skills are cheap at mostly 5 or 10 energy, but youll drain it very quickly with the regen. The energy based skills on a warrior are never as powerful as the adrenaline based skills. A warrior could live solely on adrenaline alone.
If you are suggesting more momentum skills or more regen please suggest it and not just hint at it.

Lastly:
A Ranger with a Savior secondary would be BETTER than a Savior primary because your primary attribute is so terribly bad for the skills you have

Is that necessarily so horrible? And btw I personally dont think so.
.

AS BEFORE MOST OF THE BOLD IS MINE ^^^.

lyra_song · Sep 30, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

The balance for this class is this: weak armor and ability to do little damage

And thats not balance at all is it? Weak armor and little damage is a gimped class. That contributes nothing to the pvp metagame.

Ok i think i understand now, your class isnt overpowered at all. its severely underpowered.

Quote:

The differnece is that these ARENT powerful though they do require adjacent proximity. Though adjacent is technically aoe, the true glory of aoe is that it gets repeated, high damage on a target before they can move away or out of it. This has the repeated damage, but not the high damage.

So....its basically useless then?

Quote:

I think your definition of PRESSURE is very similar if not the same as spiking. If done right, as shown in the pvp preview which I know has now been nerfed, the dervish can spike. Spiking is done to apply pressure and/or kill fast without having healing.

Um...no. Spiking and Pressure builds are completely different.

Spiking = Kills you within 1-2 seconds. No healing. No protection. Youre just dead.

Pressure = Constantly damages many members of your party, forcing your monks to heal. The goal is not an instant kill, but to drain the energy and health reserves at a steady pace. Pressure breaks players, forcing them into mistakes, in which you can capitalize.

Quote:

The balance, as I've already said is that is strenght is also its weakness.If it attacks faster the more damage it takes from skills such as SS and empathy.

Though also ridiculously weak against attack such as SS and empathy.

Yes, and if you have SS and empathy this is for the player. Not to be repetitive.

Hmn...how many players actually die to SS and Empathy? Hex removal is quite common...Besides SS and Empathy arent meant for killing. They are shutdown moves.

Quote:

I already said that its to combos not to just keep stanced up constantly. If I am wrong and that you can not almost always use a stance when most effective please let me know.

Every class has an energy management system. Your momentum system is a cheap copy of adrenaline. But it doesnt really have enough skills to cover the basic attribute lines. Plus one thing...how do you regain health?? o.O;;

Quote:

If you are suggesting more momentum skills or more regen please suggest it and not just hint at it.

Sit down and think about what your class' function is.
Think about what it does differently than any other.
How does energy fit into your build (cost of skills)

I could come up with lots of ways to handle it, but its your idea and its better if you come up with it

Quote:

Is that necessarily so horrible? And btw I personally dont think so.

When a secondary can perform just as good or better than the primary in what the primary was made for...theres something seriously wrong.

InfernalSuffering · Sep 30, 2006, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

And thats not balance at all is it? Weak armor and little damage is a gimped class. That contributes nothing to the pvp metagame.
Well, I guess its not "little damage" but it doesnt do as much damage as a warrior or such. I think it does contribute to the pvp metagame. It would be very strategically helpful to have a class that can put conditions and keep conditions off of you while taking relatively little melee damage.

Ok i think i understand now, your class isnt overpowered at all. its severely underpowered.
Devil's Advocate? Before it is VERY overpowered and now it is VERY underpowered? I think just in different situations there are distinct advantages and disadvantages.

So....its basically useless then?
Lol. No.

Um...no. Spiking and Pressure builds are completely different.

Spiking = Kills you within 1-2 seconds. No healing. No protection. Youre just dead.

Pressure = Constantly damages many members of your party, forcing your monks to heal. The goal is not an instant kill, but to drain the energy and health reserves at a steady pace. Pressure breaks players, forcing them into mistakes, in which you can capitalize.
Thank you for clearing that up. I can see the difference.

Hmn...how many players actually die to SS and Empathy? Hex removal is quite common...Besides SS and Empathy arent meant for killing. They are shutdown moves.
However, there is also eles,necros,and other ways to damage this class.

Every class has an energy management system. Your momentum system is a cheap copy of adrenaline. But it doesnt really have enough skills to cover the basic attribute lines. Plus one thing...how do you regain health?? o.O;;
I wouldnt call my momentum system a cheap copy of adrenaline, but a COMBINATION of adrenaline and the assassin combo system. I gain health just like a lot of classes, either secondary or MONKS.

I could come up with lots of ways to handle it, but its your idea and its better if you come up with it

Please do that is one of the reasons of this thread.

When a secondary can perform just as good or better than the primary in what the primary was made for...theres something seriously wrong.
Is mesmer a better primary? NO Not that this class was made to be like the mesmer in that it is mainly to be a secondary, but a class that can be helpful both as primary and secondary isnt a bad thing at all.

All my comments are in BOLD^^^

InfernalSuffering · Oct 12, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

sry but i need to B U M P

lyra_song · Oct 12, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Well, I guess its not "little damage" but it doesnt do as much damage as a warrior or such. I think it does contribute to the pvp metagame. It would be very strategically helpful to have a class that can put conditions and keep conditions off of you while taking relatively little melee damage.

Warriors and Assasins as well as rangers are already great for conditions.

Quote:

Devil's Advocate? Before it is VERY overpowered and now it is VERY underpowered? I think just in different situations there are distinct advantages and disadvantages.

Before i misunderstood it as a spiker type attacker with AOE damage. Since you it is acutally AOE with small damage, that makes it very weak, imo.

Your attacks are strong and overpowered, but your class is seriously gimped for the purpose you designed it.

Quote:

Lol. No.

Dervish can do AOE as well as pressure and conditions.

Quote:

However, there is also eles,necros,and other ways to damage this class.

true.

Quote:

I wouldnt call my momentum system a cheap copy of adrenaline, but a COMBINATION of adrenaline and the assassin combo system. I gain health just like a lot of classes, either secondary or MONKS.

Ok, its a cheap copy of adrenaline and the combo system then.

All the classes can heal on primary, effectiveness is a different matter altogether though.

Warrior - Heal Sig
Ranger - Troll Unguent
Elementalist - Aura of Restoration
Necromancer - A lot of blood spells
Mesmer - Etherfeast
Monk - A lot of spells
Ritualist - A lot of skills
Assassin - Shadow Refuge

So your class needs some sort of self heal.

Quote:

Please do that is one of the reasons of this thread.

No :P

Quote:

Is mesmer a better primary? NO Not that this class was made to be like the mesmer in that it is mainly to be a secondary, but a class that can be helpful both as primary and secondary isnt a bad thing at all.

You obviously never played a mesmer in PVP, have you?

Mesmer's primary is FAST CASTING. Mesmer spells have LONG CASTING. See how it works together?

A "fake" mesmer like an E/Me cannot cast spells as fast, nor will their attributes be as strong. An E/Me also cannot be as effective at interrupting than a primary mesmer.

InfernalSuffering · Mar 22, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Along with Guild Wars Reborn I would like to try and make this thread reborn. I would like to start off by saying that even though this post was about half a year ago much has changed. I was laughing at some of my responses LOL. At that time I was basically a PvE-er and RA-er. Now I am in, and have been in, a top 500 guild for quite awhile. I now understand pressure, spikes, and the metagame much more thoroughly. That does not mean that I have lost my crazy ideas as you might know. This post is pretty much due to being bored because I’m at home sick. I have decided to change all “momentum” things to “adrenaline” because it has obviously been reused with the paragon and since many of its secondary attribute lines have momentum skills in them. Adrenaline and Momentum are merely a change of words for more connection between classes, chaining remains the same. I have changed Begin, Middle, Close, to Rise, Center, and Finale for mainly cosmetic reasons. I have also added more skills to the original post. I now realize that a mesmer can be effective, and in today’s gvg meta, and are used effectively and often. The “Perfect Storm”, if you will, for this character would be for all 8 opponents in a gvg to be adjacent to him. A combo I would use would be (in this order): Get Back Up (0 dmg), Bleeding Edge(0 dmg), Poisonous Debt(0 dmg), The Battle Begins(13 dmg/person 104 total), Whirlwind{E}(26 dmg/person 208 total), Desperate Flail(69 dmg/person 552 total). So total that is 108 damage per person and 864 total. Now, you may be thinking that that is pretty bad. However, one must take into effect that after the first hit they will also be taking -7 health degen and that they will be knocked down after Whirlwind. With a faster normal attack speed than daggers this can all happen VERY fast. If you add in an IAS such as BoA(seeing as you already have all your adrenaline) makes each attack take just about half a second meaning that you will still have time to attack twice more before they even get up out of the kd. This adds 26 damage per person and another 208 total bringing it to 134 damage per person and 1072 total. I don’t know how I would do the zealous mod for the shuriken, but assuming it was the normal 1/-1 then that’s a lot of energy and this is repeatable every 20 seconds, and while not have miniature spikes you are also dealing -7 degen to anybody you hit. Going with the whole CC by race thing this also fits very well with the Sylvari race. I hope this at least gives a general idea of how this might work. I don’t think it is too overpowered or underpowered, but as always I would love your comments.